Fighting isn’t the only way to win, Marshall Herskovitz says. The country was built on persuasion and debate, and persuading people is still a very powerful thing to do.
Help Me Understand with Dr. Rod Berger. Emmy-winning writer, director and producer Marshall Herskovitz lays out the three pillars he drew from years of polling: an economy that brings power back to working Americans, a return to common decency and honesty, and leaders with the moral conviction to carry both. He argues the answer to 40 years of neoliberalism is regulated capitalism, not socialism, and he and Rod push on where the industry of rage lives, from Fox to MSNOW to CNN, and they don’t always agree. They talk about the years when news was a loss leader, a generation that wants to be influencers, what the grandparent generation owes the ones coming up, and why Social Security has to be part of that conversation. Marshall closes with a list of anti-corruption groups and a case for sitting down with the people you disagree with.
In this episode
0:00 Flooding the zone
1:39 Three pillars, from years of polling
2:32 Americans do big things
4:00 “92% of Americans agree America is now corrupt”
5:53 Pillar one: the economy after neoliberalism
9:01 Regulated capitalism, not socialism
13:46 Pillar two: common decency and honesty
14:18 The industry of rage
17:32 When news was a loss leader
20:54 Whose American values?
23:44 The First Amendment and ICE
25:49 Kennedy and the long twilight struggle
27:41 A generation that wants to be influencers
32:12 Pillar three: leadership
34:02 Quiet strength and the American GI
36:08 Help me understand the grandparent generation
41:23 Closer to our kids than our parents were
44:10 The 70% and the other 30%
48:44 Where to get involved
50:05 Connection is the way back
51:29 The Southern Poverty Law Center
53:06 Reaching the people who believe it
54:36 Persuasion over division
Questions this episode answers
Who is Marshall Herskovitz? An Emmy-winning writer, director and producer. He co-created thirtysomething, My So-Called Life and Once and Again, produced films including Traffic and Blood Diamond, and is President Emeritus of the Producers Guild of America.
What are Marshall’s three pillars? An economy that brings power back to working Americans, a return to what he calls core American values (common decency, common sense, ethics and honesty), and leadership with the moral conviction to carry both. He says he drew them from years of polling on what Americans actually want.
Why regulated capitalism and not socialism? Marshall credits the socialist wing of the Democratic Party for naming the emergency facing workers, but argues the fix is the kind of capitalism America had from 1946 to 1968: high taxes, strong regulation and a strong safety net, closer to Denmark and Sweden than to government ownership of industry.
What is the “industry of rage”? Marshall’s term for media that makes money by making its audience angry. He puts most of it on the right and says the incentive reaches the left too. Rod pushes back on where that line falls.
About the hosts
Dr. Rod Berger has conducted more than 4,000 interviews across five continents. He is Editor-at-Large at Fair Observer and the author of The Narrative Edge: Authentic Storytelling That Meets the Moment (Wiley). Marshall Herskovitz is his friend and, on some episodes, his co-host.
Visit drrodberger.com · Get The Narrative Edge in hardcover
Help Me Understand is part of The Dangerous Ones Network. Have something you’re trying to understand? Call The People’s Hotline and leave a message: 503-212-4600.
